dusty
Junior Member
Posts: 167
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Post by dusty on Nov 30, 2023 9:37:55 GMT
Please correct me if I’m wrong. As I understand it,debt is when you can’t afford to pay back what you owe. At the last shareholders meeting if my memory serves me correctly, Jim Pellatt stated that the clubs incomings covered the outgoings so wasn’t in debt. Is that the case? or has the word “debt” been misinterpreted.Are we still covering the payments owed? Are you in debt if you have a mortgage, credit or credit card etc or because you can cover the payments you are debt free? Hopefully all will be revealed and clarified at the meeting on Monday.
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Post by JimRuoff on Nov 30, 2023 10:23:52 GMT
Maybe the term 'invested money' may have been appropriate. They spent X amount on the upgrade of Stripes (it'll always be Stripes to me), but that investment will pay for itself over time.
On a smaller scale its like buying a pool table for a pub for £1000, you're not in debt a £1000 for it as such, as over time the money will be recuperated from it being used.
However, I may be completely wrong though (its quite likely that I am).
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Post by stumpy on Nov 30, 2023 10:46:16 GMT
A debt is simply owing money; it doesn't matter whether you can afford to pay it or not, until you do pay it, it's a debt.
A mortgage is definitely, legally, a debt. It is a secured loan; until you have paid it off completely you are in debt to the building society etc. that lent you the money to buy the property, and they can repossess the property concerned if you fall behind with payments.
Similarly you are in debt when you make a credit card payment; no problem if you don't spend more than your monthly repayments cover, but if you spend more than you can pay back the credit provider can take legal action to recover their money.
Anyway, getting back to Invicta, I think the questions we should ask on Monday are these: 1. What is the amount of debt? 2. Who is it owed to? 3. When did this debt come to light?
I think we should also ask why Cugs has resigned from the board of directors.
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Post by finbarr_in_z on Nov 30, 2023 11:34:36 GMT
A mortgage is definitely, legally, a debt. It is a secured loan; until you have paid it off completely you are in debt to the building society etc. that lent you the money to buy the property, and they can repossess the property concerned if you fall behind with payments. Similarly you are in debt when you make a credit card payment; no problem if you don't spend more than your monthly repayments cover, but if you spend more than you can pay back the credit provider can take legal action to recover their money. Anyway, getting back to Invicta, I think the questions we should ask on Monday are these: 1. What is the amount of debt? 2. Who is it owed to? 3. When did this debt come to light? I think we should also ask why Cugs has resigned from the board of directors. 4. Is the debt out of control & how did it get this big?
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Post by stumpy on Nov 30, 2023 12:01:21 GMT
Is the debt out of control & how did it get this big? We don't know how big it is yet: Mr Healey says in the newspaper article "probably two or three times larger" than back when we had the CVA. That is a very vague statement - "probably" doesn't mean definitely, and there is a significant difference between a debt that is two times the debt at at the time of the CVA and one that is three times the amount. That's why we need to ask for details. As for whether it is "out of control", again that will depend on how much it is and who it is owed to. I suspect the answer to this question is "no", but we shall have to wait until Monday.
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tigger
Junior Member
Posts: 154
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Post by tigger on Nov 30, 2023 12:49:20 GMT
So as I read things Neil Cugley resigned as a Director on 27th November and then on the 29th Josh Healey told the press that the club were in debt . Be interesting how this plays out in the coming weeks
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Post by glostervic on Nov 30, 2023 13:40:16 GMT
So as I read things Neil Cugley resigned as a Director on 27th November and then on the 29th Josh Healey told the press that the club were in debt . Be interesting how this plays out in the coming weeks That seems to be the way other people have read this too. I was under the impression that when directors of Alcaline UK Ltd made a large purchase of shares at beginning of April (£30k?) the finances were put back on an even keel. Surely this sort of income into the cash flow would have rectified any issues? Now people who have served the club for a very long time appear to be leaving without so much as a note to shareholders or supporters. It will indeed be interesting to see how this plays out.
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Post by gerryhan on Nov 30, 2023 18:59:45 GMT
Apparently the directors are liable for the debt/spending by the club.
Perhaps some people would not be able to afford to carry that worry.
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Post by gazza41 on Nov 30, 2023 19:30:30 GMT
Apparently the directors are liable for the debt/spending by the club. Perhaps some people would not be able to afford to carry that worry. Alkaline are an international company so would have thought they would be able to help out . I should think there turnover is good. Don’t think we need a director of football really at this level . Getting out into the community more important get support in . Maybe investment is waiting on the doorstep now . Let’s see what’s said Monday.
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Post by stumpy on Nov 30, 2023 20:41:40 GMT
Apparently the directors are liable for the debt/spending by the club. Perhaps some people would not be able to afford to carry that worry. Gerry, I'm no legal expert, nothing like, but my understanding is that this is not the case if the club is incorporated, i.e. is a limited company, as we are. Directors can only be made to pay for debts if they have personally guaranteed them, or if it is decided by a court that the directors themselves have done something that has worsened the debt or not done something that would have reduced it. Apart from that, nobody can lose more than their shareholding. If we were not a limited company, then the directors (and any other members of the club if there are any) would be liable for the debts.
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Post by invictasaint on Nov 30, 2023 20:41:50 GMT
In when it suits, out when it doesn’t ?!
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Post by gerryhan on Nov 30, 2023 22:17:47 GMT
I heard that the directors are liable.
Would explain some moves on the board.
The remaining directors are rich individuals.
Be scary for me if I were a director!!!
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Post by stumpy on Dec 1, 2023 12:25:04 GMT
The new board are for the most part business people. The chairman is a property developer. It's a fair bet that they would have performed some kind of due diligence before deciding to effectively take control of the club. As regards the debt that has been announced, it therefore seems to me that there are three possibilities - apart from the unlikely one that no due diligence took place:
1. The debt had previously been incurred under the old regime and, for some reason, did not come to light during the due diligence process. 2. The debt had been incurred under the previous regime and the new board/chairman have been aware of it from the outset - which begs the question why wait until now to make it public? 3. The debt has been incurred under the new regime.
This is why I think we should ask the questions I've suggested above.
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Post by gerryhan on Dec 1, 2023 13:55:38 GMT
Be nice to know John if the people invited onto the board from the previous administration were made aware at the time, that they would become liable for future debts incurred by the new regime. The timing of the moves would suggest not. But it's all speculation at the moment.
Maybe without the new people, we would not have a club to support. They seem wealthy enough to cover any current expenditure and have plenty of plans, so maybe we should be counting our blessings!!
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Post by stumpy on Dec 1, 2023 18:02:00 GMT
Maybe without the new people, we would not have a club to support. They seem wealthy enough to cover any current expenditure and have plenty of plans, so maybe we should be counting our blessings!! Let's hope so, Gerry.
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Post by kentjambo on Dec 1, 2023 18:36:51 GMT
Maybe without the new people, we would not have a club to support. They seem wealthy enough to cover any current expenditure and have plenty of plans, so maybe we should be counting our blessings!! Let's hope so, Gerry. If I was making these investments into the club and took to heart some of the comments on this forums various threads I'd be tempted to say well **ck it then....I'm off! Just an observation. I do get the passion and worry but like Gerry has eluded too...biting the hand that feeds you may not be the answer. No doubt it will still be Neil's fault eh Stumpy?
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Post by invictasaint on Dec 1, 2023 18:57:02 GMT
Better than, I’m it **ck off!
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Post by stumpy on Dec 1, 2023 19:36:00 GMT
No doubt it will still be Neil's fault eh Stumpy? Not any more. In the meantime, here's a quote from Hamlet: "I eat the air, promise cramm'd; you cannot feed capons so." I have had a few drinks today.
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Post by kentjambo on Dec 1, 2023 20:41:24 GMT
No doubt it will still be Neil's fault eh Stumpy? Not any more. In the meantime, here's a quote from Hamlet: "I eat the air, promise cramm'd; you cannot feed capons so." I have had a few drinks today. act 3, scene 2 I believe
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Post by stumpy on Dec 1, 2023 21:47:18 GMT
I knew it was somewhere in the middle
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Post by finbarr_in_z on Dec 2, 2023 0:24:03 GMT
Well I never thought I'd see Shakespeare quoted in this forum. Did you know the Bard makes reference to the beautiful game in two of his plays? First in the The Comedy of Errors when the servant, Dromio of Ephesus complains of his treatment by his masters:
Am I so round with you as you with me, That like a football you do spurn me thus? You spurn me hence, and he will spurn me hither. If I last in this service, you must case me in leather. (Act 2, Scene 1)
The next reference appears in King Lear, when the character Kent taunts Goneril’s servant, Oswald, by calling him a ‘base football player’ (Act 1, Scene 4).
Maybe my time at the Harvey Grammar wasn't wasted.....
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Post by chrisk on Dec 2, 2023 8:36:59 GMT
There appears to be a lot of misunderstanding of the emotive word, "debt" - understandably so after previous experience.
If you take out a mortgage of £200,000 to buy a house, then whoever gave you the mortgage is happy that you can repay it under the agreed terms. So you have debt of £200,000 and a lifetime of mortgage repayments. As long as you stay within the terms of the mortgage, no problem. However, should you cease to be able to make the payments - you lose your job is the most likely scenario - then you're in trouble and could lose your house.
It is the same with football club debt - as long as the agreed repayments are being met, there is no problem however much debt the club has taken on. Having said that, it is assumed that no unnecessary debt is taken on!
Obviously, most supporters would like to know where is the club on this issue: once bitten, twice shy.
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Post by gerryhan on Dec 2, 2023 8:52:22 GMT
Whatever about the team, the level of discourse on this forum is certainly elevated this season Incidentally, in conversation with Josh Healy at the Dulwich game, he did mention in passing, to my friend and me that we would not have a club this season without their intervention. A sobering thought.!
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Post by glostervic on Dec 2, 2023 9:32:39 GMT
[quote author=" gerryhan" Incidentally, in conversation with Josh Healy at the Dulwich game, he did mention in passing, to my friend and me that we would not have a club this season without their intervention. A sobering thought.![/quote] A very sobering thought. As Dusty pointed out in first post on this thread this is not the situation that fans had been given by previous FD. ‘Income was sufficient to cover expenditure’ was the theme at shareholders meeting. With home attendance figures holding up how did this change? HMRC payments not up to date? Hopefully more information on this at supporters meeting. (Incidentally, as an aside Joe Taylor and Ramsgate FC on a lengthy report with BBC news this morning ahead of the FA Cup match Monday evening against AFC Wimbledon. Good luck to them)
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Post by paul All Type pumps on Dec 2, 2023 10:41:11 GMT
Sorry Gerry but I have not heard so much rubbish. The club would not be around without him? When I left the club just over 1 year ago the club was NOT in any debt and had money in the account so tell me how the club can be in so called so much debt now? And that’s with the new chairman involved?
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philj
Junior Member
Posts: 123
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Post by philj on Dec 2, 2023 11:07:05 GMT
Exactly Paul, Mr.Pellatt was very proud to say that he considered the club to be self sustaining at the last shareholders' AGM.
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Post by kentjambo on Dec 2, 2023 11:52:24 GMT
The AGM was last year and since then We lost to Merthyr followed by our chairman resigning which was where Paul was keeping us in a good position but a lot of last season was short of funds and hence I guess a debt was amassed. Bottom line the club needs funds input and is not self sustaining at this time. Bigger gates, revenue and sponsors are key. Or I could be talking bollox..Happy to accept either way...it is a forum after all and I am not the fountain of knowledge. Anyway Hythe game is currently on if anyone needs a football fix😉
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Post by finbarr_in_z on Dec 2, 2023 12:30:38 GMT
Exactly Paul, Mr.Pellatt was very proud to say that he considered the club to be self sustaining at the last shareholders' AGM. But all taken in good faith. As a shareholder I wanted to see the accounts run through in detail. I know this isn't fun for many fans. But better to have a club than none.
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Post by gerryhan on Dec 2, 2023 12:38:48 GMT
Thanks for that Paul. Just passing on what he said to us at the game.
Presumably, if you load the club with debt to build a `Sportsbar` it would change the financial picture. But Paul I am just passing on what he said I am in no position to know the actuality of the situation. Perhaps we may be more informed after monday`s meeting.
Anyway lovely to hear from you Paul, who did so much to make our club what it became.
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Post by gooner on Dec 2, 2023 12:58:03 GMT
It would be good if we could all get together and attend Monday, I’ve gone back through the records and on companies house the new directors came in on July 11th. I cannot find the 22/23 accounts however this should show end of year as 30th June going by previous submissions. Are they referring to last year or is this debt accrued since July, Paul resigning, then mr Pellatt resigning the managers exit, Cugley resigning and now debt. Smells to me new people have uncovered skeletons but I am a sceptic as you all know
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